Why did Colossal Biosciences choose to bring back the dire wolf first, instead of the woolly mammoth or dodo bird? And why is does the CIA invest in them? Glenn speaks with Colossal co-founder and CEO Ben Lamm, who explains the dire wolf choice and makes the case that the U.S. must lead in “synthetic biology” technology before China does. Unlike Colossal, which Lamm says is NOT experimenting on humans or even primates, China has already admitted that it’s trying to make smarter humans. So, what kind of experiments is it doing in secret? Lamm also addresses the names of the 2 male dire wolves – Romulus and Remus – and what extinct animal the company plans to bring back next.

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: Ben Lamm, Colossal cofounder CEO. Welcome to the program.

BEN: Hey, thanks for having me back, Glenn. It's good to talk to you.

GLENN: You bet. It's good to talk to you. First of all, I have to show you this picture of George R.R. Martin with the dire wolf. I mean, that's brilliant. That's really brilliant.

BEN: George R.R. Martin, you know, made dire wolves popular in pop culture. Many people think they're a myth. But, you know, they were an American wolf.

They were the largest, strongest American wolf.

You know, we got challenged, you know, working on the mammoth, the Tasmanian tiger, and the dodo, but we got challenged by some of our indigenous partners and the government and a few others. Saying, why aren't you working first on an American species?

Like, why aren't you prioritizing that?

We got a lot of pressure and feedback.

When we got close to it, we were like, well, if we don't bring George R.R. Martin in, he's kind of mean. He's the guy who made them the most popular.

GLENN: You know, it kills me -- I did the same thing. I saw the video of the wolves howling and stuff, and little babies.

And I'm like, oh, they're so cute. They're an apex predator, been gone now for 10,000 years.

Why bring them back?

STEPHEN: So Colossal is a de-extinction and preservation company. Right?

And so we will lose up to 50 percent of biodiversity between now and 2050. And so we need new tools in the fight. Right? We think it's better to have the extinction tool kit and not need it, than not have the extinction toolkit and need it.

And so we're working on all these species. And we started having meetings with MHA Nation, one of the largest tribal groups here in the United States. And they started to give it the feedback that we need to do more for wolf conservation. Not enough going on in wolf conservation. It would be amazing if we could work on something like the great wolf.

So then they started filing it from their oral traditions, that they believe, that the great wolf was the dire wolf. I kind of sat with you -- again, the dire wolf?

So we had these great conversations, and then a few months later, we were in North Carolina.

And we learned that the most endangered wolf in the world, is the American wolf!

The red wolf, there's 15 left.

When you think about Americana, you think about the bison, you think about the bald eagle, and you think about wolves.

It would be a travesty to lose these.

GLENN: Yeah, but wait. But wait, wait, wait.

I mean, I live in -- for half the year in a place that has mountain lions and wolves.

They're both very, very important to have.

BEN: Oh, yeah.

GLENN: But they're also spooky as hell.

BEN: Yeah.

GLENN: You're not talking about -- you're not talking about preserving that species.

You just introduced a species that's been gone for 10,000 years!

BEN: Yeah. We have. And they are in a secure, expansive ecological reserve in the north.

And if they ever go back into the wild. It would be in collaboration with the government as well as some of the tribes. And they would go back on secure private lands. They are to be dire wolves.

I think you're not going to be walking down the street, worried about dire wolves.

GLENN: Yeah. Well, I just know, last time, the government got involved with wolves, it was a Yellowstone, and that didn't work out well for anybody.

BEN: You know, rewilding -- rewilding works, as long as it's done thoughtfully and managed. And the problem is, is sometimes people just get so overzealous on certain sides of the table, that they just go out and buck the patriarchy.

It really needs to be studied. It really needs to be managed. It needs to be thoughtfully taken out. But a lot of times people don't realize that, and they just get overzealous. Right?

And they politicize it.

At the end of the day, losing biodiversity, it should be a bipartisan -- and we really need to save these animals. And so by doing what we're doing, Glenn, we're actually building technology to save animals.

And so we were actually able to clone.

No one is talking about this. This is crazy. We are actually able to clone four red wolves, with more genetic diversity than the existing 15 that are still left in the wild.

That's a 25 percent bump in genetic diversity, that has been gone, you know, for tens -- you know, for over a decade.

GLENN: Okay. So, I mean, you -- you describe your company.

I'm sorry. I love the technology. I love what you're doing. I love the way you think.

It's also terrifying.

BEN: I know. We talk a lot about it.

The last time I talked to you. You asked about the CIA.

But, you know, we fall into a category called synthetic biology.

Right? So being able to use AI in software, as well as able to edit and rewrite genomes, is really critical technology.

It's as important technology as space technology. And other deindustrialized technologies.

And our adversaries are advancing. And we are trying --

GLENN: Let me. Because I -- this is -- like everything now, especially with AI. Any of this -- CRISPR. All of this technology.

You can't stop it. You can't put it back in the bottle. Because others are doing it.

BEN: Correct.

GLENN: What China is doing with this. Trying to breed smarter humans. Stronger humans.

You know, fighters. I mean, it's -- the stuff of Nazi movies.

BEN: That's actually what they said publicly.

So everything you're saying, is what they said publicly.

They said that the sequencing, many humans as possible.

They use COVID as this ruse to pull in as many things as possible. Sequencing them.

Then they say, they are looking for the genes that are making the smartest people. And we are going to engineer people.

That's not even crazy, concerned conspiracies.

They have said that out loud. So what have they not said out loud?

GLENN: Right. Any idea what they haven't said out loud?

BEN: I mean, if you think about what colossal is trying to do, right? We're trying to at least do it.

We don't do anything with humans. Even if we work with the federal government. We have this moratorium, that we're not working with humans. Only animals. We're working -- nonhuman primates. We're only working on species, but we are going to these technologies, and that application to humans, right?

And we are understanding from like a 72,000-year-old scull, what made a dire wolf bigger and stronger. And had a bigger jaw. And stronger muscles. And denser bones. We can now understand that with our technology. And engineer that into our -- being the gray wolf. Right?

So think about that same type of data, applied to humans. Right?

I think you can look at it, as adversarial countries. Advancing in technologies. In a way where they can look at, how can we enhance humans?

For us, we as an American company. That works very closely with the federal government. The Secretary of Interior just endorsed our work. And we work very closely with the Department of Interior.

GLENN: It's not necessarily an endorsement on my audience lines. You should deemphasize that with my audience. Because that's not a good thing.

BEN: It's not what anyone likes.

GLENN: Okay. All right. Yeah. Good for you. Good for you. Yeah.

BEN: I think it's important for us to always be -- Colossal, we're pretty bipartisan. We work with both sides. But I do think it's important to be transparent when things happen. And I think that us as America has to lead in synthetic biology. And Colossal is one of the most --

GLENN: So what is the difference between directed evolution and playing God?

BEN: It's a great question. You asked me this last time, right? I think that we as humans play God quite a bit, right? So I will look at it from an ecosystems perspective. When we overfish the ocean or we cut too much down of the rain forest, we are playing God at some level. When we eradicate species. But now we have these tools and technology that we can bio bank species, protect them, and even bring them back. And I think this will be even helpful for how we balance progress. As well as how we balance protection.

And I think that we need these tools now more than ever. Because we can lose up to 50 percent of all life on earth, between now and 2050, that's the current trend line.

GLENN: So, you know, AI is dangerous.
It's glorious. And horrifying at the same time.

Just depends on, you know, who is using it. And how that thing goes.

And it's judge Elon Musk says, we have to have -- we have to have the singularity, as -- as defined as human computer interface.

So we -- we merge as one.

That's not -- that's something of sci-fi movies.

Do you believe that the genetic editing tech, that you are helping to design, is going to be transferred to humans.

Is there a time that you think, oh, well, that probably has to?

BEN: I think that we will be able to look -- one of the biggest things that Colossal works on is what's called multi-splice editing. Being able to edit multiple parts of the genome, at the exact same time.

Right? And so that's part of what we really, really need to continue to advance these. Most in deep states, specifically one that drives, you know, predispositions to cancer are multi-genic in nature. Right?

So for us, I think it's very, very important to advance those technologies, so that you probably about sickle cell anemia, whether it's CRISPR tools and technologies that are being used to do a single knockout.

But most genes, or most of these are multi-genic in nature.

You have to be able to edit multi-part of the genome.

I think a lot of our technologies will be beneficial long-term, to help us cure any inherent -- that's a good thing!

GLENN: How much of this is AI-driven?

STEPHEN: I think 30 percent of our work, what would be possible without AI.

GLENN: And imagine that number is growing exponentially. I mean, I know our --

BEN: Exponentially -- exponentially.

GLENN: You know, you name the dire wolves Romulus and Remus, and I'm not a mythology expert, but I do know, abandoned at birth, raised by wolves, found in Rome. Yada, yada, yada, but didn't Romulus also kill Remus.

BEN: Yeah. Romulus. Romulus is the big one. They do love each other. So we're hoping that not all of history will repeat itself, right? So we're -- we're pretty -- we're pretty bullish on, it will work out better this round.

GLENN: Okay. Good. Good. So am I, I guess. I mean, I guess I'm rooting for that. All of us are together on that one.

That's a great goal to have.

BEN: We're all rooting for the fall of Rome.

GLENN: What is the next thing that you talk about that we'll tell the world about some day?

BEN: Yeah. So we're making a lot of progress. I think we're on the very cusp of a pretty big breakthrough for the dodo project. Right?

Talk about dire wolves and dodos. You know, we made some updates on the Tasmanian tiger. And other --

GLENN: Can we slow down on the apex predators, just a little bit?

BEN: They're very important. I mean, look, elephants kill more people than wolves. There are -- you have five wolf attacks confirmed in the last 100 years. You have a higher probability of getting struck by lightning, while getting eaten by a shark, than getting attacked by a wolf.

GLENN: No, I know that, but have you ever been in the wild?

BEN: I have been, yeah.

GLENN: The wolf walks up? Terrifying.

BEN: I've actually never been -- I've been very close to wolves, in certain ecological preserves.

GLENN: Yeah, no. I've been on my own land, and a wolf walks out from the bushes, and you're like, oh, dear God. Because they are spooky.

BEN: Yeah. In that way. It's definitely spooky, right?

Mountain lions and wolves personally. But I saw a mountain lion first.

The scariest thing I ever saw was, I was actually in Cape Tribulation in Australia once, and a Castlereagh bird walking out, and that seemed like a living velociraptor. And it was just me.

I was by myself. And I was like, I'm going to die. They are very aggressive.

They're very hard to -- look, living with nature is what we've got. Right? We have to figure out how we do that. In our next species, we probably have a big update on, is the dodo. We're very close to a fundamental step in the dodo resurrection. We don't have dodos. We haven't for a long time, but I do think we're pretty close to a fundamental step --

GLENN: Okay. One last thing. You say that you are trying to help species survive. Because we are going to lose all these species.

Why are you bringing things back like the dire wolves?

Humans didn't have anything to do with the extinction. Why are you bringing those back?

BEN: Well, so anthropologic effects, if you can look at kind of the rapid, you know, Younger Dryas cooling period. Also, compared globally, not just in America, of the rise of anthropologic effects. Early humans did drive a lot of the extinction of Megaphonics here in the United States, as well as globally.


I do think there's a lot of data that is starting to suggest, some of the affects -- of the Dryas Cooling Period. That was a rapid period. That may have had meteorological effects that affected it, right?

So for us, we want to build these. We want to use these technologies, to bring back these species.

So that we can study them.

We can look to re-wild them, if it makes sense. And also pair them to build technology for wolves, right? In the case of the dire wolf. In the case of the mammoth.

And one of the things that no one really talks about is every single week, we get dozens of letters from parents and kids, and pictures of little woolly mammoths and dodos. Hopefully now dire wolves. And people are telling us and teachers are telling us, that their kids are excited about science now.

Right?

And people are getting more and more excited about science. And so if you ask a teacher or a parent about colossal, many of them know.

More teachers than parents know, because kids are telling them in the classroom. And I think we need science now more than ever.

And I think kids are excited about science, through the extinction, while also helping conservation is a really good thing.

Ben, there is no better spokesperson for Colossal, than you. Colossal cofounder and CEO, Ben Lamm. Thanks, Ben, for being on. I appreciate it, God bless.