Christianity is no longer the dominant religion in America, “Pagan America” author John Daniel Davidson argues. Instead, we have started down the dark path of paganism. So, what will this “post-Christian era” look like? How long until Christians are persecuted in America? Has that already begun? And what can we do to turn this around? John Daniel Davidson joins Glenn to break it all down. Plus, he explains why “the idea that the future will be this secular, woke utopia is totally wrong.”

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

John Daniel Davidson, pagan America, the decline of Christianity and the dark age to come.

Let me just tell you, there's a couple of signs of hope, and I would like John to address some of this as we go along. First of all, here's Donald Trump two days ago. Cut six.

DONALD: And what the hell was Biden thinking, when he declared Easter Sunday to be Trans Visibility Day? Such total disrespect to Christians.

And November 5th is going to be called something else. You know what it's going to be called?

Christian visibility day, when Christians turn out in numbers, that nobody has ever seen before.

GLENN: Then we also had this come out over the weekend.

Here's Richard Dawkins.

Very famous atheist.

An entrepreneur claiming Christianity, as his belief.

But listen to what he says.

VOICE: I do think, culturally, we are a Christian country. I call myself a Christian. I'm not a believer, but there's a distinction between being a believing Christian and being a cultural Christian. And so, you know, I love hymns and Christmas carols. And I -- I sort of feel at home, in the Christian ethos.

If I had to choose between Christianity and Islam, I choose Christianity, every single time.

I mean, it seems to me, to be a fundamentally decent religion.

In a way that I think Islam is not.

GLENN: Okay. Forget about the Islam part.

The culture of our country is based on Christianity.

So let's bring John in, about pagan America. We are a Christian nation. You believe that.

JOHN: I believe we were. I don't think we are now. I think we're entering a post-Christian era for America and for the West.

GLENN: So that kind of sounds bad. If you listen to Richard Dawkins.

JOHN: Yeah. Absolutely. Richard Dawkins should know better. You can't have the culture without the cult.

You can't have Christianity, as a cultural force. As a force that shapes the public square. And forms the character of the people. Without the actual religion behind it.

People who believe elsewhere, in that clip that you played.

He said, now, I understand that the number that believe in Christians are going down in this country, and I think that's a good thing.

What does he think will happen to all the cathedrals? And all the parish churches. They will turn into mosques. In the case of Britain, or apartments, or nightclubs.

GLENN: So what happens to us?

JOHN: We became pagan. And part of the claim of the book, is that there is really only one alternative to Christianity. Which is paganism.

Now, I don't mean that we will have temples to Zeus and Appollo popping up in Times Square, or a surge of witchcraft, although we are seeing that surge.

What I mean is that our public life, our communal life as a nation and a people is going to be defined by the pagan ethos, not the Christian ethos.

GLENN: Which, the pagan ethos, is what?

JOHN: Nothing is true. Everything is permitted. A radical subjectivity about man, about God. About our natures. About what we can become and what we can do.

And so what determines what public policy should be, or what determines what is right, isn't based on any universal claims about human nature.

Or the image of God. Man being created in the image of God.

It's based on force and coercion.

And that's how pagan societies have always been. That's why they're slave societies.

GLENN: So pagan societies in the 20th century.

Soviet Union. Germany.

JOHN: Post Christian. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Exactly.

And what were they characterized by?

Force. Coercion. A rejection of human nature. Rejection of the idea of human rights.

GLENN: So you're seeing that everywhere.

And this is what led you to the -- the idea that we're -- we're post-Christian.

Is there any way to turn it around?

JOHN: I don't think there's a way to turn it around in our lifetimes. Let's put it that way.

So I don't think that Christianity will be defeated in the end.

I'm a Roman Catholic, myself.

And so I believe in the permanency, of the church.

And of the Christian faith. And victory if the end.

But this is a general racial struggle.

It's been centuries now, that Christianity has been declining in the West, has really accelerated since the middle of the last century. And I don't think it will be turned around in our lifetimes. And maybe not in our children's lifetimes. But there are things that we can do to sort of preserve the flame, and rebuild amid the ruins.

GLENN: Like, what?

JOHN: Transmit the faith to our children, carve out spaces for our churches and communities.

And this is the important part. We don't retreat into those communities.

We find and fight on ground we can win.

That may mean moving out of large cities that are lost. And it also may mean getting involved at the local level to take back your school district.
Take back your library. Take back your city council. And, you know, bring the faith.

The Christian faith, back into the public square. Where it was for most of our history in the country.

GLENN: You know, I've been saying for a long time now.

I think it's really important that -- and I don't like this. Because I don't want to segregate us.

I don't want, you know, two separate Americas. But I think because of the battle that we're in right now, I think it's important to be in like-minded communities, especially religiously speaking. And I don't mean all of the same religion.

I mean, that they are Judeo-Christian, value-driven communities.

Because we -- we -- if you're not in that community, and you are not surrounded by the people with the same kind of ethics and ethos, you could very well be into a community, that goes wrong on either side. On either right or left.

And goes into darkness quickly. Do you agree with that?

GLENN: You also get lulled into a place of complacency. Right? Things are okay. It's not as bad as it seems.

You know, part of the arresting title and subtitle in the cover of the book, which has a burning church on it is to wake people up, to get people to accept, that this is happening. We're living in a post-Christian society.

Christianity is not going to be the dominant force in the public life of America, moving forward.

As it has been, as I said, for most of our history. We're going to become a pagan country. And that means the Christians are going to become a persecuted minority, as they always have been in pagan societies.

GLENN: Well, wouldn't you say we're already really kind of there.

It's not as bad, as it probably will be.

But we're already there. Look, if you're pro-life, you're toast. You know.

JOHN: Yeah. The number of things that you can't publicly disagree with or dispute is growing, seemingly by the week. Right?

You have to accept that Easter is really Trans Day of Visibility. You have to accept that abortion is a positive good, not just safe, legal, and rare. But it's a positive good. It's necessary to vindicate the rights of women.

You can't question gay marriage anymore. That ship sailed a long time ago. So these are things that are part of what I call the pagan morality, or the state morality of the new pagan regime.

And you're -- there is no dissent allowed on these things. Because dissent, tolerance in the public square, freedom of speech. That's a Christian virtue. That's a luxury that only a Christian society can afford.

GLENN: Has there been any pagan countries, that have lasted?

I mean, I know that Soviet Union, 80 years. But has there been any modern pagan, that just don't eat themselves.

JOHN: Well, no. And the thing that always happens to pagan societies, when they encounter Christianity, going back through history. Christianity is the only thing that breaks the pagan stranglehold on a people, across geography, across time, across cultures.

It was the encounter with Christianity, that broke these pagan societies. Because it proposed a radically new way of conceiving of man, and our relationship to God.

And one another. And how we should organize society.

And as Christianity retreats, that paganism. That pagan ethos, that is simmering, just below the surface. Is going to come back in modern forms. In modern iterations. As it did in Nazi Germany.

In the Soviet Union. And there were periods, where there was this illusion of like atheism and of secularism.

We're shedding that pretty quickly. The idea that the future is going to be the secular liberal utopia is totally wrong.

GLENN: I think wokism is a religion.

JOHN: Yes. It's a form of paganism.

GLENN: Yeah, it has its high priests.

You can easily be excommunicated. It has its rituals. It has things you must do and must never do. It's the opposite of Christianity. There is no forgiveness. Even the high priests can't forgive you, unless you bow down to them.

JOHN: And then only maybe.

GLENN: Then only maybe, depending on who you are. It's so clearly a religion.

Why -- why call it paganism instead of wokism?

JOHN: Because I think wokism, just like atheism, or communism, is a species of paganism.

And that when you really dig into what paganism is. And how it works. What we're seeing is a resurgence of paganism in a modern context.

Part of it is a vocabulary problem. We're not going to talk about the dogs in the same that ancient pre-Christian peoples talked about the gods.

But we are seeing a growing acceptance in the idea of spiritual forces.

A movement away from pure materialist secular scientistic kind of thinking, that denies all supernatural reality. That denies all spiritual reality, especially among young people right now.

This admixture of being secular on the one hand, in rejecting organized religion, but being open to spiritual forces. And things like identity that are really beyond reason. Or I would say, a disfigurement of reason.

Which is another hallmark of a pagan society, and we see that everywhere now.

GLENN: So you -- you saying these things. It would be really easy for the left to say, ah! You want -- you're a Christian nationalist.

You want a Christian country, that is run by the church. How do you respond to Christian nationalism?

JOHN: Well, it would be great if it were true. The funny thing about the Christian nationalist debate. As I sort of -- the argument in my book, kind of lays out, is that it's the opposite of the case. We're not becoming a Christian nationalist country.

I don't even know what that he's not.

I think what they mean by that. They don't want Christianity to have any influence on our national life and on the public square, as was the case for our entire history up until the middle of the last century.

But the idea that Christian nationalists are somehow ascendent, or the Christians are somehow gaining power and influence in the United States is a joke.

And when you look at the demographic data and you look at the decline in church affiliation and church attendance, you look at how --

GLENN: It's plummeting.

JOHN: Yeah, on every metric across the board, so it's a weird argument to make when Christianity has never been weaker in the United States.

GLENN: But there is. There are those that do want. I mean, they're very fringe, fringe, fringe.

But they do want a religious state.

And that -- I don't think that's what you would want, when you said, it would be great, if it were true.

I don't think it would be great, if it were true.

I want the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. But I want the people to -- to regulate themselves, and, you know, as -- as Franklin and Jefferson said, the -- the best way to regulate yourself is through religion. Through Christianity.

JOHN: Yeah. Well, you have John Adams' famous line that our Constitution was meant for only a moral and religious people. It's unfit for any other.

But, you know, it really is true, that, you know, Remi Brague, the French philosopher said in the 1990s, talking about Europe.

The European civilization is, you know, a product, not of calculation, but of faith. So you need actual Christian belief.

You know, contra Richard Dawkins. You can't just have the principles.

They rely as their source of vitality on an act of faith among the people. So if we actually had a critical mass of believing, practicing Christians in this country, we would have things like free speech, tolerance, an open public square, human rights, and respect for everybody.

The things that are disappearing right now, under an ascendant and emerging pagan regime.

GLENN: The name of the book is Pagan America: The Decline of Christianity and The Dark Age to Come.

I just want to hold you over for a second longer because it's a little dark.

And I would like to see the hope in all of it. We'll that do in just a second. Let's say you had to spend 1 dollar every second of every hour, day after day, month after month, year after year.

How long would it be, before you could spend a trillion dollars? 36 thousand years!

We're spending and borrowing and printing $1 trillion every 100 days. That is an art form in and of itself for a country to be able to spend that kind of money. My gosh.

What are we buying?

I hope we all get yachts!

It is not hard to see, where we are headed with our economy and the US dollar. Please, don't have all of your money in US dollars. Please, land.

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GLENN: You know, I hear from people all the time, well, it's never going to get that bad.
It's never been like that. It's never going to get that bad.

Clearly, not true, John.

We're in a different place than we have ever been before. So give me some hope. What can be done?

JOHN: The last chapter of the book, is titled the Boniface Option, and it's a loving dig at Rogers. The Benedict Option, which came out in 2016.

And one of the things that they argued for, was to build up your local communities, your local churches, your home schools, your family communities.

And sort of build an ark to survive the storms to come. And one of the things I push back on a little bit with is the idea that we can just build arks and kind of hunker down and survive.

We have to push forward. And we have to push Christianity out back into the public square, where it was.

And where it belongs. As a testament to the faith.

I think there's hope in this sense.

As people she had their sort of strict material worldview. And are open to the idea of spiritual forces.

There's an opportunity for Christians to proclaim their faith, publicly again. And proclaim it to a people who maybe are more open, than they were a generation ago.

When secular liberalism seemed triumphant.

And it seemed like the future was going to be this atheist, cold, rationalistic world.

That's not the world that is emerging right now.

And so there's real -- there's real battles to fight. With real spiritual forces. And Christians need to sort of put on their armor, and get ready to fight with their faith. By like I said earlier, taking back your schools. Taking back your city halls. Taking back your towns.

But also being able to proclaim the faith, publicly. And pay a cost for it. Right?

There's a long period in this country, where Christians and the state were kind of on the same side. And Christians enjoyed a kind of deference and privilege that they didn't through much of our history.

That's coming to an end, and we need to wrap our minds around it. We need to steel our nerves, and we need to take heart in the truth of our faith and the succor and the strength that it gives us.

GLENN: And that only begets stronger Christians.

Stronger people of faith. When they really have to struggle. That's our problem. We haven't had to struggle with our faith for so long.

Yeah. Sure. I believe in God. You wouldn't say it, out loud, many times.

But now that you're starting to be pushed, you're seeing more and more people, talk about it, openly.

Thank you so much for being in here. It's pagan America. The decline of Christianity, and the dark age to come. John Daniel Davidson