RADIOFebruary 24, 2025

Bud Light Insider Reveals What Led to Dylan Mulvaney Controversy

The American pushback against wokeness really took off after the Bud Light-Dylan Mulvaney controversy. But how did that partnership even happen? How did the working man’s beer go work? Glenn speaks with Bud Light insider Anson Frericks, who is the former president of Anheuser-Busch Sales & Distribution Co. and saw the company’s culture shift firsthand. He lays it out in his new book, “Last Call for Bud Light.” And he tells Glenn that the driving force behind the wokeness wasn’t business data or the will of customers. It was major shareholders like BlackRock, who pushed the World Economic Forum’s Great Reset principles. So, now that Trump is pushing back against the ”ESG Industrial Complex,” he argues, many CEOs are abandoning these failed policies.

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: Anson Frericks, I think I have his name right. He's the author of a new book called Last Call for Bud Light.

He was -- he is the Strive asset manager cofounder. He is with Vivek Ramaswamy.

He has written a great book that I think everybody should read. Anson, welcome to the program!

ANSON: Thanks for having me this morning, Glenn. Really excited to be on the show.

GLENN: Oh, you bet. Your book is fascinating. It's a great, great business book. To kind of get into how a great brand is built. And how it's dismantled. And how it went horribly, horribly wrong.

ANSON: Yeah. You know, Glenn, it's really interesting.

If you think about all the pushback on ESG and DEI, and really just, in my mind, it really started with the collapse of Bud Light.

That's when I think you had all these regular, everyday folks that were saying, man, you know, you act like you did not like when the NFL and all the players kneeling. Yeah, I hated it when Disney got involved in the parental rights issues. But, man, when Bud Light, which is the working man, everyday citizen beer, when all of a sudden, they're promoting Dylan Mulvaney, and everything going on with Dylan Mulvaney, that's when I think people said enough is enough. They stopped buying the beer.

Customers left by the millions. The stock price cratered. It's crazy that they still haven't figured out, and there hasn't been a comeback at all.

GLENN: You know, I wrote a book a few years ago, about The Great Reset.

ANSON: Yeah.

GLENN: And how that was changing everything. And all of these companies would be beholden, not to you, the consumer, but would be beholden to people like BlackRock. And as I'm reading your book, I'm like, yes. Yes.

I can't believe how right we were. Because that's really what seemed to have happened. The culture changed. You moved from St. Louis to New York.

You started caring about BlackRock. Not the consumer.

And you were there, watching this happening, knowing what was coming. Or at least it seems that you really kind of knew what was coming.

ANSON: Yeah. No. Absolutely. And, Glenn, you were ahead of everybody on this. With the Great Reset, the phenomenal book on your end. And seeing what's happening. When you have the World Economic Forum. Klaus Schwab, and all these individuals that were pushing more for this European form of corporate governance. Stakeholder capitalism. Companies. They're supposed to create value for all stakeholders. Which is very distinct. For the American -- Milton Friedman view of the world, that said, you have to put the shareholders first, and you have to do what's right for the shareholders, which is create products, services, that actually create more sustainable businesses.

But as many corporations over the last five to ten years adopted this Klaus Schwab, European fake order view, which was foisted on them by the BlackRock world, who were taking money from very progressive pension funds in California, in New York, and in European sovereign wealth funds. We saw this as the least sustainable thing that a business can do. Is try to get involved in all these political and social issues.

GLENN: Right.

ANSON: To fracture your customer base. It's bad.

GLENN: Was that something that you think these business leaders actually believed in? Or were they just saying, hey, it's a new world. And everybody has to do this. Or we're not going to get the money from the banks.

And we're not going to get the funding that we need, et cetera, et cetera.

ANSON: Yeah. I don't think many of these people believed in these programs. But unfortunately, they were foisted by them, by the black rocks. The state streets. And the Vanguards.

They're the single largest shareholders in most of these companies. And then you have this whole ESG industrial complex, built around this.

McKinsey. One of the most influential management consulting companies, had their diversity matters. Diversity wins.

DEI studies, that told companies that they needed to improve their DEI. And, of course, they could hire McKinsey for millions of dollars to figure out how to do that. You had the human rights, which is this activist non-profit organization, that started scoring companies. You know, you talk a lot about the social credit scores. Human rights campaigns are doing to the companies that's shaming them, if they didn't have the right transgender policies in place. If they didn't have the right amount of advertising to the LGBTQ+ community. I mean, there was this whole complex that was built up.

That's why I think you were starting to see a lot of CEOs backtrack on these policies. They had nothing to do with actually creating more value for the shareholders, or actually promoting the business.

It was all about promoting the political agenda. I think most of them didn't want to believe in, but they were most compelled and forced to do over the last couple of years.

GLENN: So the Bud Light, you know, the end of, I think, I agree with you, the end of ESG. At least not -- at least the end of it being the knee-jerk reaction of, no. Of course, we have to have transgender people in every commercial.

The end of that, yeah. I'm reading your book, last night.

And I'm like, okay.

I think maybe -- maybe we've hit the end of this. Maybe this is the beginning of looking back and saying, look how insane all of this was.

Are we on sure footing now, leaving that time period? Or is it still a real lurking danger?

ANSON: No. I think the pendulum is definitely swinging back. You really see businesses dividing in two camps. You have certain companies that have realized, that these policies have failed. And they want to get back to the bottom line. You've seen companies like Meta and Walmart and Tractor Supply Company and a bunch of other people that hold back their programs. But then you have companies that are more in progressive cities. I mean, Costco has doubled down. Costco is based out of Seattle. They're doubling down on their DEI programs.

You have other companies, and I talk about this a lot. But even Anheuser-Busch, which is owned by a Belgium corporation called InBev, that they haven't necessarily publicly backed down. It's just the company that lost the most from this whole movement. And they still haven't publicly backtracked, even though a lot of their American counterparts have. Because, again, they are owned by a European company that promotes more of these -- more of these values. And I think that's where you're starting to see this divide.

And the companies that continue to hold on for to, I think the DEI and ESG philosophies are going to continue to fall behind their American counterparts.

GLENN: So how much of a role did just being out of step, with the Bud Light customer. How much of that played a role before ESG. I mean, if you don't understand the Clydesdales. You don't -- you don't get Budweiser. Would you agree with that?

ANSON: You know, 100 percent, I think there was a dangerous cocktail that was mixing for almost ten years at Anheuser-Busch. And we kind of found this firsthand. So going back, Anheuser-Busch was created by an American family, by the Busch family. It was taken over by a European company called InBev in 2008. And InBev was based in Belgium, and then it was also run by a couple of Brazilian individuals. And they came here to the US. And over 5 years, really dismantled what Anheuser-Busch was.

Even including in the year 2015, they moved the corporate headquarters from St. Louis to Missouri.

And they thought they couldn't have the right talent in -- in -- in St. Louis. They couldn't attract the right people. Even though, St. Louis, Missouri, they had great talent that built this company, essentially the world's largest beer company.

GLENN: Oh, yeah, Anheuser-Busch, St. Louis, Missouri. You heard that your life.

ANSON: That's it. So they moved from the epicenter, away from the middle of the country.

Where there's always a saying -- you know, generally placed for American. Peoria, Illinois, is very close to St. Louis. You have all of a microcosm of the US around there.

Which helps you understand the center of the US.

When you move to New York. You hire New York agencies. New York marketing. New York folks. That has really changed.

I think the outlook of the company, combine that with the rise of really ESG and DEI, which really took off, in that 2015 to 2021, 2022 time frame made for a dangerous cocktail, that they just lost who their customer was. And who that core American beer drinker was.

GLENN: I have to tell you, one of the best parts has nothing to do with ESG, of the book. Is moving the company to New York. Because I moved my company out of New York. But at first I left the -- the headquarters in New York. And the company really split. You know, once a founder leaves, things can go awry quickly. And especially if you're in New York, and the founder is in Texas. And we really had some really tough times, because of that. And I -- you know, businesspeople, I hope they -- I hope they recognize the effect. But in your book, it shows, a company like InBev could not. It didn't get that at all.

ANSON: No. They didn't really get it at all. I saw firsthand, the company changing. You read more about this, in the book last call for Bud Light. One of the things I was frustrated with, especially in the 2020, 2021 time frame, after COVID, after George Floyd. And the company which was this meritocracy. That's what I joined. Hey, if you work hard, you get promoted. And one of the key principles of the company was, we promote based off the results you get. And all of a sudden that principle was changed to, we promote based off the diversity of your team.

Then you sort of have diversity dashboards coming in. To see the diversity of your team. On top of that, we couldn't even just get partnerships done. I thought that made tons of sense.

I talk about this in the book a lot. I tried to do a distribution agreement with Black Rifle Coffee Company. And you probably Black Rifle Coffee company, its mission is to serve culture and coffee to firefighters, first responders, police, people who love America.

But that was too controversial of a partnership in 2021 and early 2022.

GLENN: That's crazy!

ANSON: And for me -- for me, it was kind of our external affairs team in New York. They essentially scuddled this deal based off their own political leanings. I said, guys, the same person drinking a six pack of Budweiser at night is the same person drinking six cups of Black Rifle Coffee Company the next morning.

GLENN: Yes.

ANSON: And what do you mean we can't do a distribution deal, where we're putting the same Black Rifle Coffee cans on the Budweiser trucks? This makes sense for everybody.

But that was too controversial of a partnership. And that's where you saw just that center of gravity, when you're looking at America through the lens of Fifth Avenue in New York, versus St. Louis Missouri, where I think you really lose sight of who your customer is.

GLENN: You know, when you talk about how Bud Light sent that can to Dylan Mulvaney, that may surpass. In fact, I think it does, surpass the boob move of, we've reinvented our recipe. Now it's the new Coke!

I mean, just dumb as a box of rocks. You say, I -- you outline clearly how bad it was for Anheuser-Busch, but the average person, I think would think that Bud Light has kind of recovered, and that's kind of past. But that's not true!

ANSON: No, I mean, it really hasn't.

You know, I get into this in the book a lot. About that same organization, that same sort of external affairs team that canceled that Black Rifle Coffee deal. They were the one that green lit the Dylan Mulvaney partnership.

And unlike the Coca-Cola. Coca-Cola, they were in the state. But what do they do? They took accountability for it? Did they apologize for it?

GLENN: Right.

ANSON: They killed new Coke, I don't know, within a couple of months.

GLENN: Oh, yeah.

ANSON: One of the big problems. You make bad, bone-headed marketing mistakes regularly in business. The real problem here is, yes, the marketing decision was wrong. But even more importantly, the company's response to it is the reason, Glenn. Like sales are still down 40 percent, 50 percent.

They still lost $40 billion of value, and have not recovered before this. Because the company never took responsibility and accountability, and has not made any changes. The same CEO is still there. They still have not come out. They rolled back publicly DEI policies. They haven't apologized to their loyal customer base. And they haven't been able to admit, and say, we screwed up.

And I think part of it is, is because of this kind of European ownership they have. And, you know, my feeling is that they're not going to actually get their Bud Light customers back, no matter how much money they throw at it. Dana White, the ultimate fighting championship, which I think they gave him $100 million. They have Shane Gillis, they have others. Because the real path to redemption, I mean, goes through forgiveness. You know this. But the only way to be forgiven is actually to admit there was a mistake and there was an area. And they have yet to do that. Until they do that, I don't think a lot of these customers are coming back, no matter what marketing you give folks.

GLENN: So the name of the book is last call for Bud Light. The fall and future of America's favorite beer. I need to take a one-minute break and then come back. And I want to talk to you about what does the future look like, and not necessarily for Budweiser.

I mean, you are -- you cofounded strive asset management with Vivek. A good friend and a really smart guy. Who I think has a really bright future. And so you're looking at these companies and trying to find the right companies that align with the values of their customers.

Tell me, the advice that you give for companies, now that are still kind of in this weird zone. What the future looks like. And what is the path forward?

GLENN: If -- if I could catch hope in a jar and put a lid on it. And give it away, I would. Our nation has been far too short on hope. Especially when will it comes to the economy and our personal ways.

Maybe things are finally starting to get better. Maybe we will have more trouble before it gets better. We have a lot of debt we have to pay.

We made a lot of really bad mistakes. But now that we have good leadership in office, you know, it's going to be a little less worrisome, maybe.

A little more hope.

But you are still in charge of your own personal economy.

Here's the hope I can give you. A sincere recommendation to give American Financing a call. Because they work for you, not the bank. They're salaried employees. When they -- when you call them. They will shoot straight with you. Maybe take ten minutes just to get started. And they are saving the average listener of this program, just around an average of, what? $836 a month.

That's like giving yourself a 10,000-dollar raise. That's a little -- that's a little deposit in the hope bank, isn't it? Start today. You might even be able to delay up to two mortgage payments, which can help get you even further ahead.

Don't take my word for it. I always tell you, and I mean it every time. Do your own homework.
Don't take anybody's word for it. You're smart enough to figure out if it's right for you.

American Financing. 800-906-2440. 800-906-2440, or go to AmericanFinancing.net.
Ten-second station ID.
(music)

GLENN: So what do you see as the current situation, and the path forward in the next three to four years, for American companies and brands?

ANSON: Yeah, so it's funny. I left one year before that Dylan Mulvaney partnership, after they wouldn't let me do the Black Rifle Deal.
I saw the company changing from a diversity standpoint. And Vivek and I, we started a company called Strive Asset management. Which was, we were going to invest everyday citizen dollars into businesses and have them be focused once again on meritocracy. Have them be focused on their mission.

Don't necessarily get involved in a lot of political and social issues, like we saw. I was looking Atlanta, Georgia.

If you remember, Glenn, in 2021, when the governor passed the Georgia rights act. You have to have an ID to vote.

And corporate America lost. BlackRock. One of the companies said, we're pushing back against it. Then they kind of compelled Coca-Cola, Delta to get involved in this pushback. And Major League Baseball cancelled the All-Star Game.

In 2021, in Atlanta, over this Georgia voting rights. You need to have an ID to vote. So we saw a lot of these problems happening. And we came out, and we said we're going to start a new asset manager, compete against BlackRock.

Let's have companies just focus on whatever their mission is. Stay out of politics. That will be good for business, because you will not fracture your customer base, and it will be good for our democracy as well. Because we should have individuals -- are the ones that should be deciding what rules they live by, not these secret national organizations or ESG-promoting asset managers. It's funny.

When we originally launched, this is not even a contrarian position. But this was almost like a subversive position 20 years ago. People called us anti-ESG, anti-DEI, anti-woke. I mean, you name it.

GLENN: Anti-everything.

ANSON: Anti-everything, and I said, guys, we are just pro-American, free market shareholder capitalism. That's what we are pro. We are anti-European stakeholder capitalism. We're anti-the World Economic One. We're anti-the European agendas, yes, we are. But we're very much pro-American. Free market shareholder capitalism.

And there are a lot of people that wouldn't even work with us. Marketing agencies wouldn't work with us. People wouldn't engage with us early on.

And it's so funny now, because now three years later, what was a very contrarian idea has become very mainstream, and the pendulum again has swung back for most of corporate America, who has now -- who has now once again been able to focus on the business.

GLENN: I think this is a book for every businessperson, even just someone who has watched Anheuser-Busch through the years. It's an amazing story, and something that every businessman should read, going forward. Last Call for Bud Light. The fall and future of America's favorite beer. Anson, thank you so much. God bless.

ANSON: Thanks, Glenn.

America’s Power Grid Crisis Exposed: Can Trump Stop China’s AI Domination?

With the AI race in full swing, America must face one of its biggest obstacles if we're going to beat adversaries like China: our current power grid, which hasn't been updated since FDR, is not sustainable. We need 99% power by 2027. We're at 3%. Of all energy usage, in the next three years, an additional 29 gigawatts will be needed by 2027, and 67 more gigawatts will be required by 2030. Glenn argues that this can only be done by building nuclear power plants. China is already ahead of us in power plant production, so we need to get the ball rolling: "This is something that Donald Trump could do. And it is time!

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: Tonight is an epic interview with the president at the White House. So don't -- don't miss it. I'm going to do that interview, later this afternoon. It will air 9:00 p.m. Eastern time. It will be unedited. And you will be able to see them.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's not like you're dealing with Joe Biden anymore.

No. Yeah. Because -- let's see what he says.

You know, I have a lot of things to talk about. Like one thing, that I would like to see, you know, that I don't -- I don't see anybody talking about.

You know, the president is changing the economy. He is changing -- he is getting away from this World War II nightmare.

That, you know, might have been right for 1948. But it's certainly not right for today. Where we were taking care of Europe. We were giving them all kinds of special breaks. We were paying for their defense. Yada, yada, yada.

Instead, now Americans take care of herself. And we all need to be self-sufficient. Well, you know, we're talking about AI a lot. But what people are not talking about is something that Eric Schmitt came to the White House -- sorry, to Capitol Hill and testified a couple of days ago, about the power usage. We have a significant problem with power. Now, I want you to understand.

Everyone will tell you, we cannot you lose the race for AI. Have you heard anyone say anything other than that? Stu.

STU: No. Anyone who talks about it. says, we can't just let China or someone else win it.

GLENN: It's 100 percent universal, we must, must win. Okay?

So where are we going to get all the power?

Here's what Eric said. Many people project demand for our industry go from 3 percent.

3 percent of total energy production. Right now.

We're at 3 percent.

For all of our server farms and everything else.

For Silicon Valley. Uses 3 percent.

He says, it's going to go from 3 percent to 99 percent!

Of all energy usage, in the next three years, an additional 29 gigawatts by 2027 and 67 more gigawatts by 2030.

He's now saying that we have to build hundreds of nuclear power plants.

He said, there were some plants. They will require, most plants will require one nuclear power plant, per server farm!

Some of them may require up to three nuclear power plants per server farm!

So this is really good in one way: Because we will have the electricity that we need. Assuming we start to build these things quickly. I mean, what's going to happen, Stu. It takes 25 years, to build a nuclear power plant. How is it we're expected at all to compete?

We have dismantled our coal-fired plants all over the country. We are still not digging up coal and -- and fuel, as much as we need to.

We need to be open and open on absolutely everything.

That's something that Eric Schmitt said yesterday too. Remember, this is the Silicon Valley guy. I'm sure he was green, green, green for a long time.

Now he's saying, we need absolutely every source of energy. Because we will need 99 percent by 2027.

2027.

What do you think -- what do you think your power price is going to be?

What do you think about rolling blackouts or brownouts?

We have got to be. And this would create so many jobs.

So many jobs. Good-paying jobs. Going out and building all these nuclear power plants.

STU: Is this an opportunity.

GLENN: But will we do it?

STU: For Trump and the Trump administration?

GLENN: Huge. Huge. Huge.

STU: Because it feels like talking about positives, going on offense, rather than being on defense. There's been a lot of defense talk lately.

GLENN: Yes. Yes.

STU: And going on offense and saying, hey, we can be the best place for your company to exist. Because we will be the only place on earth that has the power it needs.

GLENN: Yeah. Yeah.

The only other country is doing it is China. And they're building it like crazy. This is something that we have -- Donald Trump could surpass FDR in power generation.

Remember, most people in 1919, Woodrow Wilson, I think 1 percent of the population had a refrigerator. By 1930, I think that number was like 80 percent. Had refrigeration.

When -- when FDR came in, the only places that didn't have stuff. Was there was no electricity in these small little rural towns. So he went. And he started building power plants and dams.

And everything else, to generate all the power. And then started laying power lines. This is something that Donald Trump could do. And it is time!

I mean, our grid hasn't really been updated since FDR.

We're still using the same stuff. And, you know -- and a lot of it is just so outdated. And so bad.

Our grid is so incredibly unstable. And not built for what's coming next.

And I just don't know how he's going to get it done. But this is a big win for him. Big win for him.

You know how many jobs would be created if we introduced and said, we have to build them, in the next three years?

We would be enormous!

Enormous!

And exciting!

STU: Yeah. Yeah. Exciting. I mean, look, having a power is the basis of civilization. Like, this is not a -- it's not a small little thing.

It really is one of the foundational elements you need for a modern civilization.

And we sit here. And we talk about all the things that we can't do.

All of the natural resources that we have. We can't utilize.

All the things that we need to stop.

Right? We need to stop making gas-powered cars.

We need to stop getting our own coal and using it.

We need to stop building nuclear plants. This is a way of saying, no. We're on offense.

We're America. You know, the left is trying to right now. They're in the middle of a rebrand.

And one of their -- as we talked about last hour. They're still seemingly stuck in a lot of these crazy woke stuff that burns them the last time. Hopefully, they stick with them forever.

One of the proposals being proposed bit left. It's this idea of abundance. That's the name of the book that kind of lays these concepts out.

And it's an idea of trying to take away what the right has always had. Which is this idea of saying, hey. We're looking to grow.

We want better things. We want the Americans to have a better, more fruitful. More wealthy.

More -- you know, having more. And we'll decide what we want to do, when we have more.

And the left was always saying, hey. No. We need to restrict. We need to calm that down. You don't need all this. You don't need the bigger house. You don't need the bigger car. And that's not the fundamental, number one thing you should care about. But it was always there for us to say, hey. All these shelves are stocked. Everything you need is right there. You make the decisions on what you want. You make the decisions on prioritize on what you will spend your money on. And what you will spend your time on. And the left is trying to take that back now. You're seeing an opportunity because of a lot of people on the right, who are saying, no. Actually, maybe we shouldn't have those things available. Maybe you don't need them. And I'm nervous. If they decide to go down this road, there is a real vulnerability to the conservative movement, if the left takes that away from us. And they want to.

GLENN: State it again, more succinctly. Your concern again?

STU: My concern is, and this is a real thing being talked about on the left. In sort of their higher level academic circles. Is the approach to say -- to take away, I don't know. It was a -- I would say, pretty consistent with that Reagan optimism. Right? The shining city on the hill.

GLENN: We can do it. We can do it.

STU: We can do it. We can accomplish all these incredible things. Not through government. Through you.

You can do it. We'll have all these things. And you should expect from your country, an abundance, not a scarcity.

GLENN: I'm trying to figure out, where are you seeing that on the left?

STU: There's a major best-seller that just came out, called abundance.

And it was from the left. It was from two guys on the left. And I don't know that they will win.

But, you know, Ezra Klein, Derek Thompson. They're pretty well-known.

GLENN: That's really hard. That's really hard to sell. Barack Obama -- I know. Look at Barack Obama. He has how many houses? Three. Where he's building a seawall around one of his houses, where you can't build a seawall in Hawaii. But he's building a seawall around one of them. That's his part-time house. His other part-time house is in Nantucket, one foot above sea level. One. Count them. One foot above sea level.

STU: Right.

GLENN: And he has a third house someplace else. I think it's here in Washington.

And he's always talking about, hey. You know, there comes a time where enough is enough.

And you have too much.

When is that, Barack?

Because you're telling us, you shouldn't have an SUV.

You have three houses!

See, this whole abundance thing has never been aimed at them!

It's always been aimed at us.

They believe in abundance.

STU: Sure.

GLENN: For the right people. The right people get it.

And that is the biggest difference in abundance, is they've been saying that we all have to pinch back, but they don't actually mean it. At least the Republicans are like, yeah, I'm corrupt as hell and making all kinds of money on the side. But you can't do.

You know what I mean? It's just crazy.

STU: Yeah. No. I agree. I think, look, they've never actually believed any of these things. What was their approach. Forever, we heard the approach of, hey.

Your TVs are too big. Your cars. They're too -- they have too much of what you need.

The SUVs are too large.

Your homes are too large. You don't need the air-conditioning. You should turn it to 72 degrees.

Now, I can bet you at neither Martha's Vineyard or in Hawaii. Barack Obama never had his house set to some uncomfortable temperature he didn't like.

GLENN: Well, he might have.

Because he's right on the ocean. You can get that lovely ocean breeze that most of us don't get.

STU: That's true. That's true.

It was always something they tried to implement on the people. We get what we want.

But you need to sacrifice, for the greater good. And that's -- that's a thing that just doesn't connect exactly, with the American people.

Not because they're not charitable. Because they are. They want to do good things for other people.

They will come together, and do incredible -- accomplish incredible things which they have done.

But it was always this idea that you would be able -- it was part of the American deal, right?

We do these things. We work hard. Maybe we work harder. Maybe we work more hours.

Maybe we put up with more crap. The idea that we can shape our own future. The left is trying to take that messaging back.

Now, I'm with you. In that, I'm not confident, that viewpoint will not win out on the left. Because there's a bunch of insane people.

But it is a vulnerability on the right if we go down this road of trying to encourage the same type of scarcity talk that the left has been engaging in.

GLENN: Okay. Okay.

So let's -- let's take that. Next hour, I want to tell you a story that fits right in here, on what the leftists are doing in San Francisco.

Because it's very similar to what you're talking about.

This morning, when I read it. I thought, that will never work.

But maybe you're right. Maybe it will.

I don't know. But it's insane.

We'll talk about that and so much more. Coming up.

Don't forget, President Trump, an interview tonight at 9:00 with President Trump and I.

EXCLUSIVE: A Sneak Peek Into Glenn's Sit Down With President Trump

President Donald Trump has made more progress than any other president, or many presidents combined in the first 100 days. Glenn is sitting down with the President for an exclusive 100 day interview, and they have a lot to discuss. President Trump has the opportunity to turn this country around and fix the damage done by the previous administration, but the clock is ticking. Glenn gives a sneak peek into what he and the President will discuss in his exclusive interview at the White House, including the economy, the power grid, and how critical it is that his presidency is a success.

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

STU: You've got, of course, your interview with the president of the United States. Going to be airing tonight.

GLENN: Yeah.

STU: On Blaze TV. BlazeTV.com/Glenn. By the way.

Promo code Glenn. If you would like to join Blaze TV, and save 20 bucks.

You have kind of an approach here? At this point? Do you know what you will ask him?

GLENN: Had to.

I mean, I do. I've got pages and pages of questions and notes.

But now I have to -- you know, it will take me an hour or two, just to whittle it down to the questions I think I can get in.

You know, I've got 45 minutes or an hour with the president. And that's from the moment he walks in, to the moment he leaves.

So you don't have a lot of time.

And, you know, every -- every single word counts. I know -- I want to start with this. I asked just for a list of the things that he had accomplished on the first 100 days.

And we got to page 89. I'll have all of them tonight.

This is the first I think 89 days.

Look at that.

STU: Hmm. A lot.

GLENN: That's just a list of the accomplishments of the first 89 days.

That's -- what did you say? 4 inches thick? I mean --

STU: Crazy.

GLENN: This guy has made more progress than any other president, or many presidents combined in the first 100 days. Nobody has done what -- what he's done.

But, you know, one of the things that I don't know how -- because I can't ask him directly. So I have to ask him several questions all the way through, that will kind of give you a sense of, are we looking for a reprieves? Is that what we're going to get, a four-year reprieve?

If the economy doesn't turn around fast enough, because I believe the president can turn it around. But if it doesn't turn it around fast enough. Or if people don't understand that he is changing the entire structure of the world.

And he's trying to do it in two years. Really.

We're going to be left with a reprieve and not a -- not a fundamental change. And does he think that's really possible?

Especially, without Congress.

I will rail on Congress. I don't know if he will join me on that.

I really want to know why he isn't pounding Congress into the dirt.

I mean, Congress they're not helpful at all.

No matter what everyone says.

I talked to the people just the last few days here, to tell you that the Senate and the House leadership is on the president's side.

And they don't their butt from their elbow.

They have no idea what they're talking about. They are not on his side. They are not working with him. And that's obvious.

I mean, they should be passing.

You know, I know this is going to be -- you know, he said, I'm going to pass the largest tax cut.

Well, he's not.

What the Congress is doing, is he's actually -- he's thwarting the largest tax increase in American history. That would come next year.

Well, the country needs a tax cut. A tax plan, that will actually encourage spending on business.

Encourage, you know, spending on -- on creating jobs.

I also want to talk to him about energy.

I mean, what are you?

What do you think, Stu?

What are the questions that you want to know?

STU: I think the economy is a big one. And how he's going to kind of go forward with that.

We talked about having that sort of positive agenda. I think that will be helpful.

Seems like the markets are like that today. And there's a little bit of an approach change over the past couple of days, and that seems to be helping quite a bit. I think that's a big one. I think certainly energy is a big one. Department of Education is another one.

GLENN: Wait. Wait. Wait. Those go back to the positive. Like we talked about energy.

Going in and saying, look, I'm going to build all these nuclear power plants in the next three years.

Because testimony on the hill. Yesterday. Take before yesterday. From the president, you know, former CEO of Google. Eric Schmitt was pretty clear.

We are going to -- right now, the cloud services, if you will.

The compute power. For all of the big, you know, computer cloud servers. They require currently 3 percent of all of the electricity that is used in the United States.

3 percent.

In three years, they will require 99 percent of our energy.

Well, there's no way that can happen without us having blackouts and brown Brownouts.

And the rest of the country, just starving itself from electricity.

That will just collapse everything.

So a positive way to deal with this, is to say, I am going to do the biggest energy push ever in American history.

And he's already done it for oil.

And coal.

Now he just needs to say, I'm cutting the red tape. I'm going to make sure that they're safe. But there's new technology now with -- are nuclear power plants. And we're going to drop them in city after city after city.

Where those cloud servers are going to be.

Because if Eric Smith is right. And I believe he is.

Each one of these cloud servers by 2030. Will need a nuclear. Full-sized nuclear power plant, themselves!

That's incredible!

STU: It's incomprehensible.

But, yeah, as you point out. Instead of saying, you know, like an alternate approach to that, would be, hey. We need to stop these AI companies from doing this. We need to make sure that they are not -- that's what I would say, the left would typically do in a situation like this.

They would try to stop the company from growing and innovating.

They would say, you need to do more with less.

And I think the conservative argument there, is to say, hey. No.

We will give you the tools that you need. We will make it easy for these companies to build nuclear power-plants in a safe way, of course.

But reliable energy that can -- that can fuel these things would be great.

I think the same thing. I think you look at Trump's economic plan. He wants to bring let's say manufacturing back to the United States.

Well, there's a couple of ways you can do that.

Both ways are completely consistent with what Trump wants to do. One of them are obviously tariffs. Has almost all the attention. I think there's a reason why the media focuses on that.

I think they would rather talk about the tariffs.

Because they're not as popular. The other side is incentivizing. It's cutting regulation. It's cutting taxes. It's making the United States into the greatest state to do business.

People will want to come here. And the Democrats have worked really hard to take that impression away from the world over the past 20 years.

And Trump, I think in his first term did a good job encouraging that sort of development here.

I think it went pretty well with the economy.

And I think that just -- I think he believes that.

Still, he just -- it hasn't been the focus of -- as much of the messaging. And I think that could help.

GLENN: This is -- this is the problem.

And I'm going to try to get him to explain this.

I can't ask him. I don't think I can ask him directly.

Because the president, if you say, look at how much trouble we're in.

And, you know, is this fixable?

Of course, he will say, yes. It's absolutely fixable.

But he needs to articulate. Or somebody needs to articulate how close to the edge of the abyss we are.

I mean, you know, Stu, you know I have -- I have talked about this economic stuff, over and over again.

I had a conversation with somebody, who I can't say who.

But they believe me, they absolutely know what's happening with our dollar and the economy and everything else.

Okay? An official in the government, that that's -- you know, that's pretty much what they do.
And I said, look, I'm trying to get my arms around this.

Because I'm thinking about, you know, why he called it Liberation Day. And I think it's because he's changing the whole system.

You know, that was set up after World War II.

And yada, yada, yada.

And I said, and I don't think people understand that, if we -- if he fails, this is it.

This is our last chance, to save America.

We're over!

And this individual put their hand on my shoulder, and said, no.

Listen.

We are over. So he said the same thing I did. He just wanted to make sure that I understood, exactly what I was saying. And I found that to be a little terrifying. And I don't think people truly understand, this is it! This is it.

If -- if you -- if you want to have a country left, we're going to go and experience tremendous pain.

I mean, Ronald Reagan talked about this.

You know, there's going to come a time when none of the choices are good. And everybody wants to eat around the edges, and not take the whole pie. You have to have the whole pie. You can't eat around the edges anymore. You've got to fix the entire thing.

And that is going to be really painful.

And dangerous. And I -- I don't know if I can get him to talk about that.

I mean, how would you ask him?

STU: Do you think that's the way he sees it?

Do you think -- because it does seem like the types of maneuvers, he's made, when it comes to foreign trade, for example.

He really does see.

Not just something we need to tweak. An absolute, monumental crisis.

Right?

GLENN: Yeah.

STU: Because that is a big change, and I think maybe slightly different than the perception going in. And that's something he will kind of have to deal with, with the American people. That's why maybe he's having issues with some of the independents, losing support among independents. I don't think he's going to see. You know, I don't think he runs his operation. I don't think he looks at it and says, okay. This isn't polling well right now. So I don't want to do it.

GLENN: No. He doesn't. He sees himself. And thank God, he sees himself as, if I don't do it, no one will.

And I think that's true.

I don't know of -- Donald Trump is completely unique. You know, he's been forged in the fire, where he wasn't in 2016.

He is now.

I mean, what are you going to do to him?

You try to throw him in jail. You try to throw his family in jail. You try to destroy his business, his reputation. You try to call him every name under the sun. They tried to kill him not once, but twice. I mean, what are you going to do to this guy? He doesn't care.

And so I really believe that this is so far beyond him. He knows, look, I am here, that the time for a reason. And it's to save the country, in the way I believe it needs to be saved. And so it is a complete departure from The Great Reset, but it is a Great Reset. The world has been shaping us for this reset.

I've been talking about this since 2008. They shaped us for this reset to where they would -- they would manage the decline to a certain point.

And then it would kind of fall apart and then collapse into this new system that they had built. Well, he's dismantling that, at the same time trying to put the system back into place they can't be they had taken apart.

It's -- I mean, it's -- if he can pull this off. It's going to be a miracle. We will be the first people in the history of the world, to pull this off.

And it's -- it's an interesting -- going to be interesting to see how all of this works out. All right. More in just a second.

GLENN: You know, I'm talking about the Great Reset. Have you seen that Klaus Schwab has resigned?

STU: Hmm. Sad to see him go, Glenn. He's done such good work at the World Economic Forum. He's been able to usher us into this new world that we've all been asking for and demanding. Sad to see.

GLENN: Well, especially, he's done some really good work apparently on the buttocks of several women. Which, you know, I don't know -- I don't know, let's just say they were nice little polite pats on the butt, you know, as they passed by. Hey, sweetheart, how are you doing? Apparently, he's created a very obscene culture at the World Economic Forum. Now, who would have thunk it.

Every time he comes to town, the prostitutes go through the roof, because they're shipped from all over the world. But, no, I'm sure it's a very pro-woman, you know. He really cares. He really cares deeply. But apparently, he's in trouble for sexual harassment. And also -- yeah. Also, problems with some funds. Apparently, he used some funds to buy big houses. But it's no big deal, right?

I mean, eh. He can get away with it. He's Klaus Schwab. I hate these people so much. I hate these people so much.

And the -- the -- the hypocrisy of these people just kills me.

Kills me. One of the other things I want to ask him about is The Great Reset. And how, I mean, six years ago, you remember when we started talking about The Great Reset.

And everybody said, that's -- and now look at it!

Everybody knows about DEI and CRT and everything else.

Everything they said, you have the court system, now defending.

Saying, you can't come back. Wait a minute. I thought it was a conspiracy theory.

I'm just counting conspiracies.

Isn't that what you want?

It's incredible.

I mean, want to know, if you will stand up to the courts.

STU: Yeah. What does that mean exactly too?

I don't know. Obviously, right now, we have six Supreme Court justices that were -- that were actually named by Republicans. Right?

Three of them by President Trump himself.

What does that mean as far as -- I know they took a stance against him, deporting certain people.

And they'll --

GLENN: I can't believe it.

STU: That sort of battle has been fascinating.

GLENN: These people.

When we were saying, we should vet people.

When they're coming in. Ask them. Hey, here's an idea.

COVID. Can we see if they've had their vaccine?

No. You can't do that!

Now, we're trying to ship them back home. Oh, we have to have a sit down with them.

We have to have a formal interview. You know, before we get rid of them. We have to really sit down and talk to them.

No problem bringing them in. None!

Riddled with disease. Not a problem. Hang on just a second. I think you left a few of your fingers behind. They just fell off.

You want to just take them with you, as you enter the United States? No problem coming in, all kinds of problems leaving.

STU: Well.

GLENN: How does this make sense?

STU: A lot of this has to do with your hatred of Maryland fathers. You have always been against people who are just fathers in Maryland.

GLENN: I was a father in Maryland for a while. My daughter was born in Maryland. And I was the dad. So I was a Maryland father.

STU: Wow. You can't be deported. That's apparently the rule.

Did you see the explanation?

I love this. Of the domestic violence thing.

Where she filed a restraining order against him for domestic violence.

Everybody is like, hey. He beat his wife.

She says now, no. That was not true.

She filed a domestic violence restraining order against her husband. Quote, in case things escalated, end quote.

GLENN: Oh, that happened.

Tania did that to me, last week.

STU: It's a case.

GLENN: I need a restraining order. He might kill me.

He was not threatening to kill me. But in case he does. Gosh, this is terrible!

MANY Young People are Turning to God. Is THIS Why?

According to multiple reports, young people have flocked to the Catholic Church, especially the past year. Glenn believes it’s because of rituals. While progressives tried to change our shared traditions, some institutions are holding tight, and our young people are noticing. “Those rituals you do as a family are very important,” Glenn says. “They’re very human. And they’re not just Catholic traditions…a bride walking down the aisle, a soldier saluted at a ceremony, even the way we light candles to honor the dead. They mark moments that matter in our lives and they help organize things in our mind.” And in the religious sense, they create clarity, something that our younger generations have very little of as the world tells them nothing really matters.

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: It's Good Friday. One last story on faith. I was reading an article about Tammy Peterson. The wife of Jordan Peterson.

Last year, she walked into a Catholic Church and embraced a new faith. She was a survivor of cancer. And she found, you know, solace in the rosary's ritual. You know, beads and their rhythmic prayers and all of that. And it gave her peace through all of the fear that she had. She shared this last year with the Catholic Herald interview.

And she's not alone.

A New York Post article, this week, reports a surge in young people converting to Catholicism, with year-over-year converts increasing from 30 to 70 percent.

The archdiocese of Fort Worth says, there was a 72 percent jump in converts in the last year!
Something is happening. And I think it's rituals.

You know, Barack Obama knows, said his wife. That we're going to have to change everything. We're going to have to change our traditions. Our language. Our history.

Rituals bring things back together. At a time when we are told, you know, if you disagree with your family. Don't get together with your family. Those rituals that you do as a family, are very important.

They're deeply human.

And they're not just Catholic traditions or relics of the past. They're everywhere. A bride walking down the aisle. A soldier saluted at a ceremony. Even the way we light candles in honor to -- to honor the dead. They mark moments that matter in our lives, and they help organize things in our mind.

And rituals, in Catholicism, the Eucharist, or the confession, elevate this instinct. This need to the sacred. So it's not just -- it's not just a routine.

It is a bridge to meaning. And that matters.

Because when you have meaning, and there's a storm in your life, it gives structure, so it doesn't feel like the storm is just going to wipe you out entirely.

There was a study in 2013, in Scientific American. An article by a psychologist.

That explained that rituals, religious or not. Reduce anxiety. Steady us after loss.

And boost confidence before big moments.

And you can look at this. I mean, it's not faith-based. But think of athletes with a pre-game routine.

Or just a child calmed by a bedtime story.

Rituals amplify this.

New York Post. Noted that young converts now especially Gen Z crave, quoting, the clarity and certainty rejecting the, quote, last week alternatives of modern worship. Why? Because modern worship tells you, you can believe anything. There are no real rules. God will always just take you as you are.

And, I mean, he will. Warts and all. But you've got to do a little something. Try this on for size. How alive is the church over in England?

Has it ever been alive?

Church attendance among 18 to 24-year-olds has jumped from 4 percent to 2018 to 16 percent in 2024.

I would say there's something going on here.

And experts are saying, it is a hunger for substance. And for Tammy Peterson, it was the rosary. That was her lifeline.

And, you know, whatever it is, but whatever the ritual is. You don't have to be a Catholic or anything.

Whatever you are. But what if we all leaned into our rituals a little bit more?

Because they're universal.

I mean, think of the -- think of the little things that we do every day. The morning coffee poured in the same way, the same cup every day. A family holiday tradition. A quiet moment of prayer every day.

Rituals build communities. Like a congregation singing together. In unison.

Or a neighborhood block party. They mark time! They give us mile tones. Baptisms. Graduations. Funerals.

We now live in a world of screen and rush and rituals slow us down.

I don't have time!

Yeah. You do. That's exactly what you need. Rituals. It will slow you down. Make you present in the moment. They're not about rules.

They're all about meaning, if you do it right. This isn't about recognizing, you know, one faith over another. This is about recognizing what rituals do for us. The New York Post highlights how young people facing permaconflict.

Permaconflict. And secular individualism, are seeing traditional Catholicism as cultural defiance.

And you don't have to be a Catholic to find this. Maybe your ritual is, I don't know what it is.

But whatever it is, it can shape your heart and your day. And as we head to Easter this weekend, as we head to our hopefully -- you're attending your Easter service this weekend.

Take time to find your family's ritual. And I say that, my kids are scattered everywhere. And I'm having to go to Washington on Sunday.

And for the first time, I think in my life, I'm not together with my whole family on Easter. And I hate that!

Hate that. You know, things happen in life.

But no matter what faith you are, I mean, we can all learn from each other.

We are all part of one big body. And one big effort.

Because I believe the other side, as we started this show.

We started talking about this really evil editorial. This op-ed. On Substack. That started talking about. You know. When do we start killing people?

Hello?

There is evil. We are witnessing the growth of evil.

But I just gave you some status that show, yeah. But good stuff is happening too.

Generation Z is the hero generation. You watch. You watch.

They will put this back together. Just no matter where you are. No matter what you're doing this weekend, if you're a believer, just say it out loud this weekend, to somebody.

He has risen. Just share it with somebody. Just share the peace.

Live your ritual, whatever it is. Live your ritual.

It's so important.

Former OpenAI Researcher WARNS of “Reckless Race” for AI Control

AI development companies like OpenAI and Google DeepMind are in a “reckless race” to build smarter AIs that may soon become an “army of geniuses.” But is that a good idea? And who would control this “army?” Glenn speaks with former OpenAI researcher and AI Futures Project Executive Director, Daniel Kokotajlo, who warns that the future is coming fast! He predicts who will likely hold power over AI and what this tech will look like in the near future. Plus, he explains why developers with ethical concerns, like himself, have been leaving these Silicon Valley giants in droves.

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: So we have Daniel Kokotajlo, and he's a former OpenAI researcher. Daniel, have you been on the program before? I don't think you have, have you?

DANIEL: No, I haven't.

GLENN: Yeah. Well, welcome, I'm glad you're here. Really appreciate it. Wanted to have you on, because I am a guy. I've been talking about AI forever.

And it is both just thrilling, and one of the scariest things I've ever seen, at the same time.

And it's kind of like, not really sure which way it's going.

Are -- how confident are you that -- what did you say?

DANIEL: It can go both ways. It's going to be very thrilling. And also very scary.

GLENN: Yeah. Okay.

Good. Good. Good.

Well, thanks for starting my Monday off with that. So can you tell me, first of all, some of the things, that you think are coming, and right around the corner that people just don't understand.

Because I don't think anybody. The average person, they hear this. They think, oh, it's like social media. It's going to be like the cell phone.
It's going to change everything. And they don't know that yet.

DANIEL: Yeah. Well, where to begin. I think so people are probably familiar with systems like ChatGPT now, which are large language models, that you can go have an actual normal conversation with, unlike ordinary software programs.

They're getting better at everything. In particular, right now, and in the next few years, the companies are working on turning them into autonomous agents stop instead of simply responding to some message that you send them, and then, you know, turning off. They would be continuously operating, roaming around, browsing the internet. Working on their own projects. On their own computers.

Checking in with you, sending messages. Like a human employee, basically.

GLENN: Right.

DANIEL: That's what the companies are working on now. And it's the stated intention of the CEOs of these companies, to build eventually superintelligence.

What is superintelligence? Super intelligence is fully eponymous AI systems, that are better at humans at absolutely everything.

GLENN: So on the surface -- that sounds -- that sounds like a movie, that we've all seen.

And you kind of -- you know, you say that, and you're like, anybody who is working on these.

Have they seen the same movies that I have seen?

I mean, what the heck? Let's bring -- let's just go see Jurassic park. I mean, ex-Machina. I don't -- I mean, is it just me? Or do people in the industry just go, you know, this could be really bad?

DANIEL: Yeah. It's a great question. And the answer is, they totally have seen those movies, and they totally think, yes, they can get rid of that. In fact, that's part of the founding story, of some of these companies.

GLENN: What? What do you mean? What do you mean?

DANIEL: So Shane Legg, who is I guess I'll give you the technical founder of Deep Minds, which is now part of Google Deep Minds. Which is one of the big three companies, building towards super intelligence.

I believe in his Ph.D. thesis, he discusses the possibility of superhuman AI systems, and how if they're not correctly aligned to the right values, if they're not correctly instilled with the appropriate ethics, that they could kill everyone.

And become a -- a superior competitor species to humans.

GLENN: Hmm.

DANIEL: Not just them. Lots of these people at these companies, especially early on. Basically had similar thoughts of, wow. This is going to be the biggest thing ever.

If it goes well, it could be the best thing that ever happens. If it goes poorly, it could literally kill everyone, or do something similarly catastrophic, like a permanent dystopia. People react to that in different ways. So some people voted to stay in academia.

Some people stayed in other jobs that they had, or funded nonprofit to do research about this other thing. Some people, decided, well, this is going to happen, then it's better good people like me and my friends are in charge, when it happens.

And so that's basically the founding story of a lot of these companies. That is sort of part of why Deep Minds was created, and part of why OpenAI was created.

I highly recommend going and reading some of the emails that surfaced in court documents, related to the lawsuits against OpenAI.

Because in some of those emails. You see some of the founders of OpenAI, talking to each other about why they founded OpenAI.

And basically, it was because they didn't trust Deep Mind to handle this responsibly. Anyway how --

GLENN: And did they go on to come up with -- did they go on to say, you know, and that's why we've developed this? And it's going to protect us from it? Or did they just lose their way.

What happens?

DANIEL: Well, it's an interesting sociological question.

My take on it is that institutions tend to be -- tend to conform to their incentives over time.

So it's been a sort of like -- there's been a sort of evaporating growing effect.

Where the people who are most concerned about where all this is headed, tend to not be the one to get promoted.

And end up running the companies.

And they tend to be the ones who, for example, be the ones who quit like me.

GLENN: Let's stop it for a second.

Let's stop it there for a second.

You were a governance researcher on OpenAI on scenario planning.

What does that mean?

DANIEL: I was a researcher on the government's team. Scenario funding is just one of several things that I did.

So basically, I mean, I did a couple of different things at OpenAI. One of the things that I did was try to see what the future will look like. So 2027 is a much bigger, more elaborate, more rigorous version of some smaller projects, that I sort of did when I was at OpenAI.

Like I think back in 2022, I wrote my own -- figuring out what the next couple of years were going to look like. Right? Internal scenario, right?

GLENN: How close are you?

DANIEL: I did some things right. I did some things wrong. The basic trends are (cut out), et cetera.

For how close I was overall, I actually did a similar scenario back in 2021, before I joined OpenAI.

And so you can go read that, and judge what I got right and what I got wrong.

I would say, that is about par for the course for me when I went to do these sorts of things. And I'm hoping that AI 27 will also be, you know, about that level of right and wrong.

GLENN: So you left.

DANIEL: The thing that I wrote in 2021 was what 2026 looks like, in case you want to look it up.

GLENN: Okay. I'll look it up. You walked away from millions of equity in OpenAI. What made you walk away? What were they doing that made you go, hmm, I don't think it's worth the money?

DANIEL: So -- so back to the bigger picture, I think. Remember, the companies are trying to build super intelligence.

It's going to be better than humans, better that night best humans at everything. While also being faster and cheaper. And you can just make many, many copies of them.

The CEO of anthropic. He uses this term. The country of geniuses. To try to visualize what it would look like.

Quantitatively we're talking about millions of copies.

Each one of which is smarter than the smartest geniuses.

While also being more charismatic. Than the most charismatic celebrities and politicians.

Everything, right?

So that's what they're building towards.

And that races a bunch of questions.

Is that a good idea for us to build, for example?

Like, how are we going to do that?
(laughter)
And who gets to control the army of geniuses.

GLENN: Right. Right.

DANIEL: And what orders are going to be give up?

GLENN: Right. Right.

DANIEL: They have some extremely important questions. And there's a huge -- actually, that's not even all the questions. There's a long list of other very important questions too. I was just barely scratching the surface.

And what I was hoping would happen, on OpenAI. And these other companies, is that as the creation of these AI systems get closer and closer, you know, it started out being far in the future. As time goes on, and progress is made. It starts to feel like something that could happen in the next few years. Right?

GLENN: Yes, right.

DANIEL: As we get closer and closer, there needs to be a lot more waking up and paying attention. And asking these hard questions.

And a lot more effort in order to prepare, to deal with these issues. So, for example, OpenAI created the super alignment team, which was a -- a team of technical researchers and engineers, specifically focused on the question of how do we make sure that we can put any values into these -- how do we make sure we can control them at all?

Even when they're smarter than us.

So they started that team.

And they said that they were going to give 20 percent of their compute to -- towards me on this problem, basically.

GLENN: How much -- how much percentage. Go ahead.

DANIEL: Well, I don't know. And I can't say. But as much as 20 percent.

So, yeah. 20 percent was huge at the time.

Because it was way more than the company, than any company was devoting to that technical question at the time. So at the time, it was sort of a leap forward.

It didn't pan out. As far as I know, they're still not anywhere near 20 percent. That's just an example of the sort of thing that made me quit. That we're just not ready. And we're not even taking the steps to get ready.

And so we are -- we're going to do this anyway, even though we don't understand it. Don't know how to control it. And, you know, it will be a disaster. That's basically what got me delayed.

GLENN: So hang on just a second. Give me a minute.

I want to come back and I want to ask you, do you have an opinion on who should run this? Because I don't like OpenAI.

I like X better than anybody, only because Elon Musk has just opened to free speech on everything. But I don't even trust him. I don't trust any of these people, and I certainly don't trust the government.

So who will end up with all of this compute, and do we get the compute?

And enough to be able to stop it, or enough to be able to be dangerous?

I mean, oh. It just makes your head hurt.

We'll go into that when we come back.

Hang on just a second. First, let me tell you about our sponsor this half-hour.

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(music)
Daniel Kokotajlo.

He's former OpenAI researcher. AI futures project executive director. And talking about the reckless race, to use his words, to build AGI.

You can find his work at AI-2027.com.

So, Daniel, who is going to end up with control of this thing?

DANIEL: Great question.

Well, probably no one.

And if not no one, probably some CEO or president would be my guess.
GLENN: Oh, that's comforting.

DANIEL: Like in general, if you wanted them to understand, like, you know, my views, the views of my team at the Future Project. And sort of how it all fits together. And why we came to these conclusions. You can go read our website, which has all of this stuff on it.

Which is basically our best guest attempt after predicting their future.

Obviously, you know, the future is very difficult to predict.

We will probably get a bunch of things wrong.

This is our best guess. That's AI-2027.com.

GLENN: Yes.

DANIEL: Yeah. So as you were saying, if one of these companies succeed in getting to this army of geniuses on the data centers. Super intelligence AIs. There's a question of, who controls them?

There's a technical question, of can -- does humanity even have the tools it needs to control super intelligence AIs?

Does anyone control them?

GLENN: I mean, it seems to me --

DANIEL: That's an unsolved question.

GLENN: I think anyone who understands this.

It's like, we get Bill Gates. But it's like a baby gate.

Imagine a baby trying to outsmart the parent.

You won't be able to do it.

You will just step over that gate.

And I don't understand why a super intelligence wouldn't just go, oh, that's cute.

Not doing that. You know what I mean?

DANIEL: Totally. And getting a little bit into the literature here.

So there's a division of strategies into AI's control techniques, and AI's alignment techniques.

So the control techniques are designed to allow you to control the super intelligence AI. Or the AGI, or whatever it is that you are trying to control.

Despite the fact that it might be at odds with you. And it might have different goals than you have.

Different opinions about how the future should be. Right?

So that's it sort of adversarial technique, where you, for example, restrict its access to stuff.

And you monitor it closely.

And you -- you use other copies of the AI, as watchers.

To play them off against each other.

But there's all these sort of control techniques. That are designed to work even if you can't trust the AIs.

And then there's a technique, which are designed to make the case that you don't need the control techniques, because the AIs are virtuous and loyal and obedient. And trustworthy, you know, et cetera.

Right? And so a lot of techniques are trying to sort of continue the specified values, deeply into the AIs, in robust ways, so that you never need the control techniques. Because they were never -- so there's lots of techniques. There's control techniques. Both are important fields of research. Maybe a couple hundred people working on -- on these fields right now.

GLENN: Okay. All right.

Hold on. Because both of them sound like they won't work.